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  • Sol Pacificus
    Sol Pacificus closed this thread because:
    Voting has ended
    20:54, November 16, 2018

    There was a proposal on Discord to move Philadelphia, United States and Thebes, Greece to "Philadelphia (United States)" and "Thebes (Greece)", a proposal which I disagree with, but it should still be heard, regardless of my disapproval.

    I do not understand what argument is there for the move, but I believe the arguments in support of this is:

    1. Consistency with the way other articles are disambiguated.

    My argument against this is as follows.

    1. Technically, parenthetical disambiguations are meant only to be used as a last resort when there is no other way. This is because they are rather sloppy, but in many cases, there is simply again, no other way. However, when there are valid, standard means of disambiguation such as with location names, this renders parenthetical disambiguation unnecessary, and natural disambiguations should be preferred.
    2. Consistency with Wikipedia. While I know some have argued that there is no reason to be consistent with Wikipedia, I would argue that as a wiki derived from it, even if it is necessary, it is preferable to be consistent with precedents set by higher prestige wikis and Wikipedia. For more information, read Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Naming the specific topic articles and Wikipedia:Article titles#Precision and disambiguation. Also see, Philadelphia, United States and Thebes, Greece.
    3. Codified in the Manual of Style. To be fair, the Manual of Style was largely drafted by me, and since there was no previously codified rule concerning this, I deferred to Wikiipedia. I had asked the other staff to review it and raise any concerns or objections that they have, and this was not disputed at the time. It is my conviction that once a MoS becomes official, it is our responsibility to respect it with integrity and amend through formal procedure if there are any objections. Otherwise, how can we ask new editors to respect our guidelines? I understand that perhaps some might not appreciate the fact that the MoS was published when they were inactive or neglected to review it when presented, but I don't think it is fair to then disregard it for this reason.

    If you are voting, please type either parenthetical disambiguation or geographical disambiguation, in bold preferably followed by any comments unbolded if you have any.

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    • The issue, I think, is that the name of the city of Philadelphia is not "Philadelphia, United States", it is simply "Philadelphia", and adding ", United States" into the title isn't exactly... accurate to it's name, if that makes any sense?

      I also don't believe that it's that important to match Wikipedia's standards. We don't control those but we control the ones here. I get your 3rd point, tho. I'm undecided so, I guess count this as abstain so far?

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    • Personally, I think the commas look messy but I'm from the Indiana Jones Wiki where "Indiana" is a state and a dog, and Cairo is the Egyptian capital, the city in Illinois and a person. "Cairo", "Cairo, United States of America" and "Cairo (individual)" together would make my teeth itch. ;)

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    • Zero-ELEC wrote: The issue, I think, is that the name of the city of Philadelphia is not "Philadelphia, United States", it is simply "Philadelphia", and adding ", United States" into the title isn't exactly... accurate to it's name, if that makes any sense?

      I don't think that makes sense at all. In no way would "Philadelphia, United States" imply that the name of the city is Philadelphia, United States instead of Philadelphia because the comma used here is a standard way of referring to cities when there's more than one city of the same name. Even when there isn't, in formal prose, it is often preferable to name a city by stating the name followed by a comma and the country. There isn't anything inaccurate about this at all.

      Also, as I've argued on Discord, it is better to be consistent with the standards and conventions of Wikipedia and other wiki and deviate when it suits our purposes. The reason why it makes me uncomfortable when people say that it's not important to align with Wikipedia is because in the past, they have abused this mentality to only abide by wiki principles, even ones governing civil conduct guidelines, grammar, and neutrality, when it suits their interests. At a certain point, we won't even be a wiki anymore. Hence, I would argue that we need to approach our policy by taking wiki standards as a reference then deviating when need be rather than starting from a point of thinking wiki standards isn't important and only abiding by them when it suits us.

      This thread was actually supposed to have been closed two weeks after it was posted which was a few days ago.

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    • Zero-ELEC wrote: I also don't believe that it's that important to match Wikipedia's standards. We don't control those but we control the ones here. I get your 3rd point, tho. I'm undecided so, I guess count this as abstain so far?

      I also wish to clarify that I understand that my argument doesn't preclude the possibility that this is a case where you may argue that we should deviate from Wikipedia in spite of respecting it as a standard. I know that that's probably what you were getting at instead of the points that some previous users have made where they displayed a complete disregard of wiki principles. So I don't wish to come across as dismissive of your point because I know you aren't like that latter group of people. :P

      Vetinari wrote: Personally, I think the commas look messy but I'm from the Indiana Jones Wiki where "Indiana" is a state and a dog, and Cairo is the Egyptian capital, the city in Illinois and a person. "Cairo", "Cairo, United States of America" and "Cairo (individual)" together would make my teeth itch. ;)

      I think from your perspective that is a valid point. While I personally would not mind that, it's understandable how some people would think this seems like disambiguation formatting is all over the place.

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    • I am fine with geographical disambiguation but wonder should it be city, region rather than city, country like Philadelphia, Pennsylvania instead of Philadelphia, United States?

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    • I'm torn between whether I should close this or not because technically I should've closed this a few days ago with no consensus, but you guys are just replying to it. I think I guess I will extend it until this Thursday. The reason is because the voting has to end at some point.

      And no, Lacross, it should mainly be "city, country".

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    • Sol Pacificus wrote: I'm torn between whether I should close this or not because technically I should've closed this a few days ago with no consensus, but you guys are just replying to it. I think I guess I will extend it until this Thursday. The reason is because the voting has to end at some point.

      And no, Lacross, it should mainly be "city, country".

      Lol, sorry, I saw the thread in the forums, saw that there was no responses and felt the need for there to be at least one response, even as unhelpful as it was.

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    • As of yesterday, voting has ended for this discussion. Further comments or proposals should be made through a new thread. The result of this discussion was geographical disambiguation.

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