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  • Cristophorus35
    Cristophorus35 removed this thread because:
    I'm doing a personal project and this thread was made to collect opinions of the community about it. And it worked perfectly. Thank you.
    07:20, May 28, 2017

    I'll make this one short ;)

    Simple as this: Do you think that God/Jehová/Yahweh/Elohim/The Great Architect is a member of the First Civilization?

    I think so. But not as one being, but many... like a group of precursors that have good intentions and helped humanity through history. (?)

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    • Interesting idea. It should be noted that "Elohim" is actually plural, with "El" being singular.

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    • Wow, that I didn't know. Thanks for sharing that.

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    • Cris, that's an interesting interpretation, and I am astonished to discover that you indeed know God's name, not many even know this. In fact, if you look into the etymological roots of the name Jesus, it means Jehovah is Salvation. God is more of a title than a name though, but it could be an interesting twist, of God being a member of The First Civilzation. Unrelated, accross multiple forms of fiction, such as DC, there is something known as The Source which is ultimately, God in the DC universe, and within Marvel, there is The One Above All, both exist as one being of course. However, your interpretation of God existing as multiple deities does lend credence to Paganism, such as the The Olympians ergo, the Greek gods of Olympus. 

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    • I have long believed that in Assassin's Creed, Yahweh aka Jehovah aka El was an Isu. I personally think that he was likely one of the last surviving Isu and that was how he managed to influence humanity so profoundly.

      His roots can be traced to Canaanite polytheism, where El (lit. "God") was the name of the head of the Canaanite pantheon. Very interesting detail I just discovered recently and was talking over with friends; the consort of Yahweh was originally Asherah apparently. Asherah, the Canaanite goddess of fertility, is also known as Ishtar in Akkadian, Inanna in Sumerian, Aphrodite in Greek (though the Hellenized version of the name Asherah is Astarte), and Venus in Latin. The Greco-Roman pantheon shares common Indo-European roots with the Mesopotamian ones. In other words, we can say that Aphrodite was the consort of Yahweh o_o... Note that Asherah is mentioned contemptuously several times in the Bible, where she is known as a false goddess to be destroyed (or whose idols should be destroyed). Not a very amicable divorce lol.

      What's more is that there are actually some connections between Aphrodite and Satan. See, both Venus and Lucifer are known to symbolize the Morning Star, which is actually the planet Venus. As it turns out, in Canaanite mythology, there was a god named Attar who rebelled against the storm god Ba'al (lit. "the Lord") and after his failure was banished to rule the underworld instead. While Ba'al was originally a god distinct from El, the Bible merged the title with Yahweh. Attar is the male counterpart of Ishtar (Venus), a development that comes from the Arabian pantheon which tended to switch around genders. As a result, we have an interesting scenario where Venus can not only be linked to Yahweh as his wife, but also the nemesis who rebelled against him.

      However, as I told my friends, I won't really ever feel comfortable identifying Aphrodite with Satan, and the most I would wing with is that Lucifer was her twin brother. It must be noted though—and I am really confused by this—that the Devil was not originally identified as Lucifer, Lucifer ("light-bringer", Morning Star) being used as a title to describe Nebuchadnezzar II, the Babylonian king responsible for the Babylonian captivity of the Judeans instead. The motif of the Morning Star was used disparagingly because it fails to shine as brightly as the Sun and "falls" or disappears. The link between Lucifer and the Devil was only made by Christians much later, believing it to be analogous to their tales of the Devil's origin, and even possibly because of a misinterpretation of that text, which calls the Babylonian king Lucifer because the Babylonian king was thought to be descended from Ishtar (Venus). Furthermore, the character of Satan as the nemesis of God, I believe, also didn't exist in the original Hebrew Bible. Satan, meaning "accuser", seems to have initially been a specific angel who was assigned the role of tempting humanity to sin under orders by God, to test them. As I understand, Judaism tends not to have an explicit view of the Devil or believe he exists at all.

      In any case, mainstream Christianity has linked Lucifer to the Devil nonetheless, and despite the possibility the analogy to the Devil is a total misinterpretation, there is striking resemblance to the story of Attar, the male Ishtar, rebelling against Ba'al and failing and having to descend to the underworld.

      So I thought I might note the interesting possible link between Aphrodite, the Devil, and Yahweh. I favor the idea that Yahweh was one of the last surviving Isu, and that he amassed power and influence over humanity at some point, but I know how controversial that would be to Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Aphrodite does seem to have survived well into the days of Myceanean Greece though, judging by the story of Kyros of Zarax which is incorrectly dated to the 6th century BCE.

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    • I'm not sure if I should say this, but from the actions and behavior of God in the Old Testament, he seems like a dictator extreme even for a Templar, demanding absolute obedience from followers and having no qualms about killing anyone on a whim, even Moses (who in spite of all he's done is doomed to not enter the Promised Land because he decided to strike a rock with his staff for water [the method God told him to use previously] rather than speak to it), for the slightest of transgressions. Massacres and genocides are repeated and advocated throughout the text. :-/ The crime of Saul that caused him to lose the favor of God was for sparing the king of the Amalekites when he was told to kill everyone (though I think Saul should've spared the women and children instead -_-). The Midianites, the tribe of Moses's wife, is massacred by the Israelites wholesale for "seducing them" even though Moses had married one... with the only Midianites spared, the virgin girls, being taken as slaves. I'm sorry... it was honestly more than a little appalling for me... so I disagree with the idea that he was a group of Precursors who wanted to help humanity.

      I think he was someone who thought his intentions were good, but who was so fixated on the idea he was righteous that he believed in dominating the world through the most authoritarian of measures. Unlike many human dictators, he did not believe that terror was a means to order, but that fear was a symptom of respect, and perhaps unlike other Isu, he eventually came to see himself as a true God. I think Satan or Lucifer was a subordinate Isu who rebelled for Yahweh's abuses of power, but was ultimately not so different because he subconsciously craved that power as well, and moreover, while Yahweh believed in shepherding humanity, Lucifer believed that humanity should be exterminated or enslaved entirely (based on the Islamic account that he was jealous of them).

      I like to think that if Yahweh the Isu survived into the days of Jesus Christ, Jesus had persuaded or inspired Yahweh to adopt a new, more positive outlook on how to help humanity, a more pacifistic path. Either that, or Jesus believed in the legacy of Yahweh, but even if out of ignorance, channeled that legacy into a fuel for pacifism and benevolence (only for it to be abused and corrupted at certain points in history by some radicals and extremists later as was Desmond's projected legacy should he have not saved the world).

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    • SupremeAssassin wrote:

      Cris, that's an interesting interpretation, and I am astonished to discover that you indeed know God's name, not many even know this. In fact, if you look into the etymological roots of the name Jesus, it means Jehovah is Salvation.


      Thanks SupremeAssassin. That's because a lot of family members of mine are Jevoha's witnesses. So when I visit them, they talk about their meetings and how they preach the Lord's words. I'm very familiar with some of God's names (Jehova, Elohim and Yahweh) too. Hehe.

      Sol Pacificus wrote:

      I'm not sure if I should say this, but from the actions and behavior of God in the Old Testament, he seems like a dictator extreme even for a Templar, demanding absolute obedience from followers and having no qualms about killing anyone on a whim, even Moses (who in spite of all he's done is doomed to not enter the Promised Land because he decided to strike a rock with his staff for water [the method God told him to use previously] rather than speak to it), for the slightest of transgressions. Massacres and genocides are repeated and advocated throughout the text. :-/ The crime of Saul that caused him to lose the favor of God was for sparing the king of the Amalekites when he was told to kill everyone (though I think Saul should've spared the women and children instead -_-). The Midianites, the tribe of Moses's wife, is massacred by the Israelites wholesale for "seducing them" even though Moses had married one... with the only Midianites spared, the virgin girls, being taken as slaves. I'm sorry... it was honestly more than a little appalling for me... so I disagree with the idea that he was a group of Precursors who wanted to help humanity.

      Yeah. I also question Yahweh's behavior in the Old Testament. Nonetheless, I believe in Him and his Son because, in my personal opinion, it gives some hope to humanity in this s#!& and crazy world. Because if we were created without purpose or reason, that we just... happen to exist. What hope do we have if we're already condemmed?... Sorry I, I get emotional sometimes.

      I also think about the links you expose here: A female among God, Aphrodite as Yahweh's wife, Lucifer as Aphrodite's brother, Lucifer betraying Yahweh. I like to think that it was Lucifer that gave Adam and Eve the Apple of Eden, that this eternal war is that original sin the church talks about.

      And about the behavior of Yahweh in the Old Testament. I like to think about "God" as a group of precursor beings. One that was harsh, other that was benevolent, other that was fair, other that was violent, and on and on. Perhaps a divine version of the Seven Dwarfs? Hehe.

      Thanks so much for sharing that. It helps me a lot.

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    • Cristophorus35 wrote: Yeah, I also question Yahweh's behavior in the Old Testament. Nonetheless, I believe in Him and his Son because, in my personal opinion, it gives some hope to humanity in this s#!& and crazy world. Because if we were created without purpose or reason, that we just... happen to exist. What hope do we have if we're already condemmed?... Sorry I, I get emotional sometimes.

      I also think about the links you expose here: A female among God, Aphrodite as Yahweh's wife, Lucifer as Aphrodite's brother, Lucifer betraying Yahweh. I like to think that it was Lucifer that gave Adam and Eve the Apple of Eden, that this eternal war is that original sin the church talks about.

      And about the behavior of Yahweh in the Old Testament. I like to think about "God" as a group of precursor beings. One that was harsh, other that was benevolent, other that was fair, other that was violent, and on and on. Perhaps a divine version of the Seven Dwarfs? Hehe.

      Thanks so much for sharing that. It helps me a lot.

      I was so afraid that I would hurt your feelings as Christian with my own interpretation about Yahweh, thanks for not being. ^_^ I personally really despise those that condemn Christians and Muslims or even Christianity and Islam themselves as irrevocably evil just because of controversial parts of their texts. It's really not that simple, religion and culture do at the end of the day go beyond what is merely written, and people even far more. At the same time, there are clear things in the Bible that I couldn't really deny, especially when I analyze them with the same eyes as I do the ancient texts and myths of other cultures like Greek mythology.

      And ah, I see the merit in your idea of God being multiple Isu now; that could work too!

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    • Sol Pacificus wrote:

      I was so afraid that I would hurt your feelings as Christian with my own interpretation about Yahweh, thanks for not being. ^_^ I personally really despise those that condemn Christians and Muslims or even Christianity and Islam themselves as irrevocably evil just because of controversial parts of their texts. It's really not that simple, religion and culture do at the end of the day go beyond what is merely written, and people even far more. At the same time, there are clear things in the Bible that I couldn't really deny, especially when I analyze them with the same eyes as I do the ancient texts and myths of other cultures like Greek mythology.

      And ah, I see the merit in your idea of God being multiple Isu now; that could work too!

      Don't worry Sol Pacificus, I'm not like the others. ^w^ I respect other's people beliefs.

      Thanks for your point of view. I wanted to meet someone with that passion for linking history texts and traditions in the AC community. This wiki is really the best one.

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    • I really like the idea of Lucifer being a subordinate of Yahweh and that the two Isu ended up being at odds with each other, one trying to shepherd humanity through ruthless oppression and the other believing they should be exterminated or completely enslaved.

      As Sol Pacificus had already pointed out, the link between Lucifer and Satan is mostly a modern invention. In original Hebrew, the term "satan" is a noun from a verb meaning primarily "to obstruct, oppose". Ha-Satan is traditionally translated as "the accuser" or "the adversary". The definite article ha- (English: "the") is used to show that this is a title bestowed on a being, versus the name of a being. Thus, this being would be referred to as "the satan". There are in fact several individuals within the Old Testament who were given this title, some of them just being regular ordinary humans.

      Another modern mainstream perception is that the Serpent in the Garden was also supposed to be Satan. There is nothing in the actual text to suggest that this creature was supposed to be anything other than a talking snake.

      The idea comes from that one time that Jesus referred to Satan as "that old serpent", but he also referred to the Pharisees at one point as a "den of vipers", which is obviously not meant to be taken literally.

      The serpent was cursed to forever crawl on its belly and eat dust until the end of its days, indicating that this was supposed to be a mortal creature who would one day die (not to mention the fact that Satan was depicted as walking in the Book of Job, which is supposed to take place later).

      During the Renaissance, most people believed that the Serpent was Lilith who, in stereotypical evil ex-girlfriend fashion, tricked Adam and Eve as petty revenge for Adam's rejection of her. Most Renaissance artworks, as such, depict the serpent as a half-lizard/half-woman.

      It would actually be quite interesting if Lilith was incorporated into the AC-verse as perhaps a human who collaborated with the Isu during the Human-Isu War.

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    • The Wikia Editor wrote: Another modern mainstream perception is that the Serpent in the Garden was also supposed to be Satan. There is nothing in the actual text to suggest that this creature was supposed to be anything other than a talking snake.

      The idea comes from that one time that Jesus referred to Satan as "that old serpent", but he also referred to the Pharisees at one point as a "den of vipers", which is obviously not meant to be taken literally.

      The serpent was cursed to forever crawl on its belly and eat dust until the end of its days, indicating that this was supposed to be a mortal creature who would one day die (not to mention the fact that Satan was depicted as walking in the Book of Job, which is supposed to take place later).

      The connection between the serpent and the Devil was definitely not made in early Christianity. However, the Qur'an explicitly calls the serpent the Devil or Satan when recalling the tale of Adam & Eve, meaning that it had entered mainstream even among Christians of Arabia by the 7th century CE and may not be as modern as we think. Note that that is still 600 years after Christianity's foundation after all.

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    • Sol Pacificus wrote:

      The Wikia Editor wrote: Another modern mainstream perception is that the Serpent in the Garden was also supposed to be Satan. There is nothing in the actual text to suggest that this creature was supposed to be anything other than a talking snake.

      The idea comes from that one time that Jesus referred to Satan as "that old serpent", but he also referred to the Pharisees at one point as a "den of vipers", which is obviously not meant to be taken literally.

      The serpent was cursed to forever crawl on its belly and eat dust until the end of its days, indicating that this was supposed to be a mortal creature who would one day die (not to mention the fact that Satan was depicted as walking in the Book of Job, which is supposed to take place later).

      The connection between the serpent and the Devil was definitely not made in early Christianity. However, the Qur'an explicitly calls the serpent the Devil or Satan when recalling the tale of Adam & Eve, meaning that it had entered mainstream even among Christians of Arabia by the 7th century CE and may not be as modern as we think. Note that that is still 600 years after Christianity's foundation after all.

      Good point. Funny enough, I remembered the Qur'an's retelling while writing the post but then completelyt blanked out on the time it was written in. The concept of Lilith, however, was already around c. 40 BCE, where a passage in the Dead Sea Scrolls briefly mentions her.

      Alos, it really was the mainstream interpretation during the Renaissance that Lilith was the serpent, as depicted in numerous artworks and sculptures from that period, rather notably on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

      It's pretty interesting how myths change over time, escpecially how we perceive the characters in it. Hades is by far the nicer than Zeus and Poseidon, and yet looks at how he's been depicted in mainstream media over the years.

      I think Aphrodite and her son, Eros (Cupid), are an interesting example of this. People today think of them as benevolent deities who helped people find love, whereas the Greeks considered love to be akin to a mental illness, an unhealthy obsession that caused people to do dangerous and unwise things in order to be with the object of their desire. Aphrodite and Eros were seen in as Loki-like tricksters who, as a prank, would make people fall in love with someone and then watch as they ruined their lives and those of others in order to be with that someone.

      Eros' twin brother, Anteros, god of requited love, is far closer to what people today consider Eros to be.

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