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Reference or Source

Does anyone have a reference or a source for this because I didn't hear aything about them in the game?

...Have you even finished the game? it's right there at the end!--CombustionMan 00:11, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Indeed - I don't see how he could have asked that if he hasn't completed AC2. --Yargling 12:43, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

They are first mentined by Warren Vidic in AC1, when Desmond interrogates him for answers on how their technology, like the Animus, was developed, he mentions it was scavenged from 'Those who Came Before'. This is then developed in AC2, right at the end of the game. Play to the end, discover all Glyphs and The Truth videos, and it should be clear.--Peace-and-War

Does anyone have a reference or source on 16 having eagle vision, i dont remember that. O.o Spoonodeath 19:19, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

ACII, 16 says "Why do we have these gifts? It's in our blood!" or something similar. Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 18:33, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Someone please get rid of that deplorable picture of Mars/Ares. It is ruining the friggin page.Beirut 01:52, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

What picture are you talking about? Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 11:37, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
Already removed it yesterday. It was 2 pictures of greek statues. -- D. Cello 02:28, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

'Humanity'?

There's a line in there that says something along the lines of 'it was 1499 when humanity would first 'meet' Those Who Came Before' something like that anyway.

It's explicitly stated that humans and Those Who Came Before lived together, even that the latter created the former, so how can it be that Ezio met them before those ancient humans?

It isn't. That piece of info is wrong. -- D. Cello 20:43, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
To quote the article "The first known instance of a human becoming aware of their existence following their disappearance was that of Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad, who made mention of them in his Codex. However, it would not be until the year 1499 that humanity would first "meet" Those Who Came Before; Ezio Auditore da Firenze, an Assassin, encountered a hologram of a being calling herself Minerva in The Vault. While Ezio likely told his fellow Assassins of Minerva, it is possible they still did not understand her true nature; Ezio showed great difficulty in understanding Minerva's explanation of her existence."
As you can see, the word 'meet' is encircled to emphasis that this is a meeting between post-First Civilisation humans and this other race. I feel it is fitting, as in-game the Codex clearly states that humanity had at one stage lost all knowledge of the First Civilisation, and it was only through the efforts of the Assassins and Templars, who used the PoEs', that any knowledge was gained. As such, I feel the wording 'humanity' is more than fitting for the article, especially since "non-primitive humans" is POV… I'm sure they weren't "primitive" at the time; by all accounts, the technology they had available to them far surpassed what was available to the Abstergo in 2012, making that choice in words technically incorrect. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 13:54, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

It isn't clear that the meaning is 'the first human after the loss of all knowledge of the First Civilisation'. I've included the word 'again' hopefully this clears up the confusion Mercenari 15:05, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

they said they were more advanced in time, they had the power to travel through time, they knew of things to come, i think that they are the future of humanity that fled back in time for some reson71.60.215.38 03:27, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Except they said "We simply came...before."

Are they still alive?

Just throwing this out there, feel free to criticise me, but is it possible that "those who came before" are still around and simply took a similar path to some of the beings in 2001: A Space Odessey? I think subject 16 mentions something about them being in the sun if I am not mistaken, which has definate parallels with 2001. This would also explain the line: "When we were still flesh" as well as their ability to predict the future as the would be in a timeless form.

It could even be possible that Minverva was not a hologram at all, perhaps the temple allowed her to communicate with humans? 94.11.67.236 21:00, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well Altair, Enzio, Desmond, and subject 16 have some "those who came before" DNA in them (Altair, Enzio, and Desmond have eagle vision) Blix1ms0ns 02:18, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

A better name

Anyone agree with me that this article should be moved to The First Civilization? - Duelisttri 14:58, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

No, if you talk to members I'm sure they are more familiar with 'Those who came before', rather than 'the first civilization'. - Altaïr 17:10, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Those who came before is just a precarious name, when we don't know what to call them so we stick with what Vidic called them - Duelisttri 15:36, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah so we'll stick to 'Those who came before'? So I don't understand what your point is with this 'First Civilization' if you agree that we should stick with 'Those who came before'. -- Altaïr 17:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

My point is now that we have know them clear enough, we should call them with a more suitable name - Duelisttri 15:57, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

No, you stick to a name people are familiar with. You might know much about them, but other people might not, so if they want to research it, you use a title that they do know. - Altaïr 18:42, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Whilst I personally prefer the title of 'First Civilisation', I do feel the article should remain under the current title. As Altaïr has mentioned, people searching for information on this subject would most likely look up 'Those Who Came Before'. It is enough that we have the 'First Civilisation' mentioned in the lead sentence, and it allows us to prevent excess repetition within the article. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 01:50, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
I think it should be changed to 'The First Civilization', anyone looking to learn about them will likely be searching for either Minerva, Juno, or Piece of Eden. Those who came before just sounds too vague IMO. If you change the name of the article and link it with characters like Minerva and Juno then i think people are smart enough to figure it out. --Jedted 21:29, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

First Templars

I just had an epiphany. We say that Cain is the first templar as his mark is that of the knights. But is it not also possible that Those Who Came Before were the first templars and the most successful as they enslaved all the humans at the time, save for adam & eve. Therefore the first assassins (adam & eve) were created by their enemies themselves, the templars, not the other way around as was previously thought.

- You are stating a theory and then immediately asserting it as truth. Though Those Who Cam Before did indeed enslave the human race, they are not Templars. Being a Templar is not a concept that you can just stumble into by seeking dominion over men using artifacts. The Templars are a definite organization, begun by Cain, as the glyphs indicate.

The First Civilization were masters. But it was Cain that begun the organization we call Templars. Vaxis 06:12, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

When I said therefore I was speaking in terms of the theory. I know that there is no conclusive evidence so it is not a fact. Now I speak in regards to both this post and the one on the sword of Eden page. they are both theories that I know have faults but that is why I love ac. there are all these connections within the games and I like finding those. They also present some interesting philosophical arguments. But for your comment on the sword, there are differences between the sword in ac and the one in ac2. also, we can see some apprentices with the sword as well. The Eagle1701 04:18, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

An innocent question: Eve is to be resurrected so she can have a Those Who Came Before child with Desmond? -SPOILER- I thought Minerva murdered Lucy so she can be brought back. I'm confused.

That thing about Eve being resurrected to have a child with Desmond never happened. You have false information. Jackass2009 04:50, January 15, 2011 (UTC)

"The First Civilization" vs "Those Who Came Before"

I don't see why the name of this article can't be change to something more convenient. TWCB is too long winded and is more of a description than a title. During the credits for AC2 you hear Shaun refer to them as "The First Civilization" so it shouldn't create too much confusion for people visiting the site for the first time. Also, as i said in the other topic, most people seeking to learn about "Minerva's People" will search for either "Minerva", "Juno", or "Piece of Eden" rather than typing in "Those Who Came Before". I realize i'm probebly in the minority hear but i still stand by my vote to change the name of the article. Jedted 20:04, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

It may be what Shaun calls it, but it's not what we call it. Campbell430 20:37, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

You have a point Jedted, Shaun does call them the "First Civilisation" and indeed, I would prefer to have the article under that name, but the simple fact of the matter is that 95% of people who play the games and/or visit the official forums know them by the name of "Those Who Came Before" (or The Ones Who Came Before for some strange reason), so it makes more sense to have the article under the current title until a more official name is brought to light. Besides, "First Civilisation" is mentioned in the lead sentence, as well as being a redirect. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 23:17, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
The reason the majority refer to them that way is because they're not imaginative enough to come up with a better name. If Ubisoft hasn't invented a canonical name for them then i think falls to us to give them one, any better than TWCB atleast. Jedted 00:09, January 10, 2011 (UTC)
No, it doesn't fall to us to create anything. That would be fan-made, and as such is not allowed on our articles; we stick with what names are given in canon. Both TWCB and First Civilisation are mentioned in the article, that is good enough. If you want to hold a vote on which name the article should be under, you're more than welcome to, but I would suggest you not call your fellow fans "unimaginative". --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 00:19, January 10, 2011 (UTC)
I appologize for sounding like a broken record here but do we still need this long winded title for this article? In AC:Revelations Ezio and others refer to "Those People" as "The First Civilization". The people that read this Wiki are likely smart enough to understand who the article is refering to no matter what the name is. I know i'm not a moderator here but i really think this needs to be considered. 96.242.4.29 02:52, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
The encyclopaedia still names them, principally, "Those Who Came Before", so unless a major consensus for a move is made, it's staying where it is. -Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 03:54, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
Scratch that. Just re-read it and the Encyclopeadia names them the First Civilization, so i'll move the article now. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 16:54, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like the technology in the Ac universe from TWCB

Prometheus could be one of the TWCB but worked with the humans.

What? --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 12:25, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
AC is an acronym for Assassins Creed and TWCB is an acroynm for Those Who Came Before.Blix1ms0ns 00:12, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
I am fully aware what the acronyms stand for, thank you. I was asking what exactly Prometheus (who isn't a god in Greek or Roman religion) has to do with "Sounds like the technology in the Ac universe from TWCB". --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 01:41, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
Remember the legend how pronetheus stole fire from the gods? Prometheus is in greek mythology at least. Besides it is only a theory Blix1ms0ns 02:20, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
Promethius was a titan, not a god, though he was trusted by the gods, don't open that can of worms though, because if the greek humans that came before the gods were TWCB, then you have to wonder, who are the grek titans who came before/ created the gods?

Reason for Humanity's creation?

Does anyone else think that Minerva's story sounds strikingly similar to one of the Creation myths by the Mesopotamians? They also said that humans were made to be the servants of the Gods. Marael 20:52, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the writers of AC 2 got inspiration from the mesopotamians.TheDudeMan123456 23:41, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

The writers for Assassins's Creed got their ideas from all walks of faith, even the ones that are more 'primitive' such as animism and ancestor worship. So some ideas in the story may be more familiar to those of us who know the Christian doctrines while some of us will know doctrines from other faiths such as Buddhism, Taoism, Evolution, etc. They mixed all of these ideas and beliefs that the world knows of and made a very complex storyline that we can all relate to in one way or another. In AC, there is no one supreme God as in Christianity. There are superhumans revered as gods. Sounds like Greek and Roman mythology, no? In reality, these fables stemmed from the stories that post-Flood humans told (if you believe in the Deluge) of the Nephilim, hybrid angel/humans that lived thousands of years ago that were much stronger and bigger than normal humans. They were known as bullies and unnatural. But in AC, they are considered hybrids, not of angels and humans, but of 'superhumans' and humans. UbiSoft, you are amazing. So all in all, it's very interesting how they created this game that we all know and play. Sorry for rambling.Strang3Happ3nings 21:44, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Greek/Roman Gods

I've noticed that the First Civilization has people with names like Roman Gods,and sice they're all powerful,could they actually be Roman Gods? Naruto 713 03:47, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

In AC Universe, the members of First Civilization, after the events following the First Disaster, depleted in number and became extinct later. And humans later would justify their (Those Who Came Before) existence by converting them in Gods and mythological characters (Roman, Greek et cetera) and thus explaining all those miraculous works.--OdranoellutaTalk 04:27, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
If you had bothered to read the article, you would know all this. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 15:11, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

Reproduction

i read that they repoduce slowly i was thinking did the fertility rate of the first civlization was low i mean with all their techonlgy they wouldnt be able to be supper fertile or at leaast beable to clone them selves, why did they repuduce slowly?DeirdreKent101 03:20, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Baby in The Message memory in Revelations

There is a woman holding a baby wrapped in a bundle. She is the focus of 2 or 3 shots - could this baby (and also her) be the very distant ancestors of Desmond? Xeoxer 21:31, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

It's possible, but I'm not sure. Master Decoder 23:00, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Any identity given to the child is, at this point, speculation; hell, at this stage, we don't even know the women is the child's mother… --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 02:48, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

3rd of the ones that came before

So i just read Assassin's Creed The Fall, and i noticed that during the tunguska explosion, Nikolai witnessed three women with Jupiter from the first civilization. They were Juno, Minerva and a third woman. Has Ubisoft or the writers said anything about who she is? 

Here's the page itself. http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/054/2/5/those_that_came_before_by_lopez_the_heavy-d3a8b8o.jpg

My own conclusion would be that it is Diana because of the hairpieces, but that's just speculation. :) Tetsu Aero (talk) 21:38, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Mythological gods where all First civilization members?

I wonder if all myhological gods were actually first civilization members? Like, in subject 16:ns glyphs it shows the nordic goddess Idun possessing apples of eden. And the Greek god of war, Ares, could have been a succesfull general in the war against humanity. And Hephaestus, the greek god of crafts, was an inventor of weapons of even maybe the inventor of the pieces of eden.

Image Questions

Okay I have two questions.

1. Where did the A transcript of First Civilization history picture come from?

2. Where can I find that picture of MInerva and Juno teaching Altair how to build the hidden gun? 70.123.103.202 21:45, April 5, 2013 (UTC)junoist</span>

1. Here, Ubiworkshop.
2 There's no such thing, as far as I know. --Crimson Knight Intercom 21:51, April 5, 2013 (UTC)
I wonder what that transcript pictures means. As for the other picture, it's one part of a group of pictures that depict scenes from Altair's life: seeing his father's execution, building his library underneath Masyaf, etc. --70.123.103.202 00:31, April 6, 2013 (UTC)junoist
As far as I am aware, these 'other pictures' you speak of don't exist. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 10:19, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
[LINK REMOVED AS COVERED BY UBISOFT NDA] (last picture)
That's one of them.70.123.103.202 04:14, April 12, 2013 (UTC)
That picture being from an Alpha under NDA, that's not for spreading around the 'Net. As such, it's also not something the wiki can use. At least at the moment. Sadelyrate (siniath) 05:17, April 12, 2013 (UTC)
The link shouldn't even be on this talk page, as it's covered by Ubi's NDA, so I've removed it. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 08:29, April 12, 2013 (UTC)
That image was from the public blog before the current private alpha stuff started.70.123.103.202 01:38, April 13, 2013 (UTC)
The only picture that I recall being released before it should have been was the Abstergo guards carrying away Desmond's body. Not the one you're referring to. Slate Vesper (talk) 02:01, April 13, 2013 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand. Before the private alpha stuff, before AC3 was released, AC Initiates was a completely public website. On it was a public blog highlighting various news items relating to AC. That picture was included in one of them.70.123.103.202 03:21, April 14, 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps, but as it is now only accessible to those subject to the NDA, unless you can find it somewhere else on the web, we can't use it. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 11:54, April 14, 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough.70.123.103.202 22:49, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Lucy

This page wrongfully states that Lucy was a sleeper agent. She was a Templar by her own will.--188.180.174.234 20:39, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Um... that isn't wrong, nor is it contradictory. She was a Templar by her own will, and she was used as a sleeper agent. --Crimson Knight Intercom 20:56, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Post second disaster

The section describing the events of AC IV is terribly written. Its like two really long sentences.--188.180.174.234 20:59, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Then why don't you fix it instead of moaning about it in that manner? That's a very good way to offend and annoy someone greatly. --Crimson Knight Intercom 21:02, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

The page is protected.--188.180.174.234 21:21, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. Though it would be nice to operate with more decorum, I suspect. I've done a small bit of work on it, though it's hardly perfect. --Crimson Knight Intercom 21:28, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Various stuff about First Civilization

So, I was discussins some details from AC universe with my friend, and I came to a set of conclusions. Remember, that these are just theories made by me, so if you know any canon info or better explanation regarding these theories, feel free to tell it. Though some theories might have been covered already, I will still tell about them form my perspective. Here they are:

1. First Civilization and their "next of kin".

As we know, after the Disaster only a handful of humans and First Civilization people survived. We also know that they crossbreeeded, resulting in people having such treats as Eagle Vision, which would ultimately lead to Desmond. So, the first theory is about Animus: if it reads memories through DNA, could it go as far as these people who survived, or, even better, those of the First Civilization? Even if it doesn`t, we still have the Observatory, full of these blood vials (or is it so ancient the DNA couldn`t have been read by Animus?).

2. Solutions of First Civilization.

Those who came before were so technologically advanced they could create Pieces of Eden, make humans and even bend them to their will. They could even see the future. And they also knew (eventually) that the Disaster was going to wipe out all life on Earth and reshape the climate. So, if they are so technologically advanced, they must have been capable of such thing as space flight. Why couldn`t they create ships and simply leave Earth? Of course, they might not have found any planets with suitable atmosphere (or any atmosphere at that matter), but they could simply just get as far away as possible from the sun and just wait it all out? Surely, the majority of people would not survive, but their numbers could have been greater.

3. Survival of First Civilization elite.

While thinking about the ending of AC 3, bearing in mind I have experienced AC Black Flag`s plot, I came to an interesting conclusion. Since we know about Aita being the Sage and Juno being set free from the Grand Temple, it seems that these messages left for Desmond might not be messages at all. Sure, they could see the future and send messages based on that, but what is the point of Juno being trapped in the Grand Temple if she was but a hologram? As we know, the Eye is sort of based on "Calculations", so I had an idea - what if Juno, Minerva and Jupiter survived? Not physically, of course, but they could have put their minds and conciousnesses in some sort of computer network and act as living beings from there?

That`s all, but one more thing regarding the theories themselves - I didn`t do it with a lot of sources, so I might have lost something.

93.159.243.62 16:18, February 11, 2014 (UTC)ThiefGamezo


Suggest editing the sentence "Aita would continuously reincarnate in human form upon the death of his previous host" by removing "upon the death of his previous host."  This is not accurate as shown that two Sages can exist at the same time.  Thom Kavanagh and Bartholomew Roberts are an example of this. Kavanagh was born in 1652 and died in 1706 and Roberts was born 1682.  So it shows that both lived during the same time and that two Sages can be alive at the same time.

Anubis3669 (talk) 14:17, October 21, 2014 (UTC)

Page move to "Isu"

Page should be moved to Isu, I think. For the sake of calling them by their actual name, I mean. Thoughts? -- Zero-ELEC (talk) 03:33, October 24, 2015 (UTC)

To my knowledge, the "Isu" is simply an era of time, like the Jurassic, or the Cretaceous. I've not seen anything yet that suggests this is the actual name of their species. I could be wrong though, in which case I think the source provided should go into a bit more detail than just naming the game. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 08:46, October 26, 2015 (UTC)
In the WWI simulation, in one of her monologues, Juno says "...[we], the Isu." Also, regarding your undoing of my edits in the Juno (2195 Isu Era) and Toba Catastrophe (2306 Isu Era) articles, the Isu Era dates I added also came from her monologues. Maxattac (talk) 09:41, October 26, 2015 (UTC)
Can I suggest you source those additions in future then, since I must have missed that bit about Toba being in 2306IE. As for your proposed article move, I support it. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 10:14, October 26, 2015 (UTC)
I don't. Let's stick to what they're most commonly known by. For all we know, "the Isu" simply refers to the people of the Isu Era, and not their entire civilization (i.e. past eras). -- Master Sima Yi Clogs 10:50, October 26, 2015 (UTC)
After playing the game a bit more, I'm quite confident we should move the article. During the WWI simulation Juno states - I'm paraphrasing here - "...the Isu, we who created you [humans]." That's pretty explicit for me. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 08:52, October 27, 2015 (UTC)
Isu is definitely what their actual name is. And we don't stick to what they're commonly known by, otherwise Al Mualim wouldn't be Rashid ad-Din Sinan. -- Zero-ELEC (talk) 21:24, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
I agree that the article should be move to Isu. Not to mention we aren't clear that this is literally the first civilization in existence, just an earlier one. There's nothing to say they literally are the first. As of yet, I have it listed as a redirect, but I think it should be replaced entirely.GZilla311 (talk) 23:07, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
Then I don't have any real reason to oppose (aside from it being quite a big spoiler for many). -- Master Sima Yi Clogs 13:07, November 6, 2015 (UTC)
I don't know if I'd consider the name a major spoiler, personally, but that's just me. I'll move the article now. I see no real need to change our links within the other articles immediately. EDIT: Apparently I can't move it. An Admin would need to do it for us. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 13:25, November 6, 2015 (UTC)

Ancient Astronaut Theory

Can anyone confirm that the Isu are actually aliens? 27.49.32.98 06:47, May 27, 2016 (UTC)AgentSmith

I'm quite sure they themselves mentioned that they are not aliens.--Bovkaffe (talk) 17:08, May 27, 2016 (UTC)

Should it be 'isu' instead of 'Isu'?

Since isu is the name of their race, like we are called humans, shouldn't isu be lower case? We don't capitalize humans in every instance, after all. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by AntiquatedCreator (talk · contr)

Interesting question. This has been an issue in Star Wars where humans are lower-case while all other sapient species are upper-case; Wookieepedia ultimately settled on having humans upper-case also—just some fun facts. However, Isu is capitalized in both Syndicate and in Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide. Also, make sure to sign your posts next time with four tildes like so: ~~~~. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 02:19, December 20, 2016 (UTC)

Isu vs. Precursor civilization

I wanted to note that The Essential Guide seems to specifically reserve the name Isu for the species but not the civilization, and "Precursor civilization" for the civilization itself. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 10:03, February 11, 2017 (UTC)

The species and the civilisation are, for all intent and purposes, one and the same so far as the Isu are concerned. Unlike humans, who have developed countless cultures or "civilisations" (i.e. Western, Eastern, Roman, Norse, Mayan etc.), there's nothing, to my knowledge, that suggests the Isu underwent a similar cultural development. The names are interchangeable, that's all. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 12:11, February 14, 2017 (UTC)
To be fair, the Isu did have a War of Unification, suggesting that there were at least two seperate cultures before they united. The Wikia Editor (talk) 13:40, February 14, 2017 (UTC)
That's not actually what I meant. Rechecking the The Essential Guide, I think I was wrong to think that Isu might not be usable for the civilization because after all, we can say the Isu civilization in the same way we say "human civilization". However, part of my point is that you won't use the name "First Civilization" or "Precursor" as the name of the species, in the same way that you won't say "Chinese" is interchangeable as the name for the homo sapiens sapiens species. Anyways, I think my point is actually rather moot. Since "Precursor" and "First Civilization" are historiographical names likely not used by the Isu themselves, and for all intents and purposes, the humans probably won't bother distinguishing a species name and a name for their civilization and/or state. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 17:05, February 14, 2017 (UTC)