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Talk:Clay Kaczmarek

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Video Edit

This is a video that was leaked recently. I think it's Subject 16 because I listened to clips of his voice actor's voice. I had a longer and better post up here, but I'm still new to this and I'm not even sure if I'm doing this right. Feel free to edit my post. Dethsought 20:45, July 22, 2011 (UTC) Dethsought 16:41, July 22, 2011 (Eastern Coast Time Zone)

20:32, July 22, 2011 (UTC) People, need confirming veracity of this: It has been revealed that Ezio was the link between Desmond and Subject 16. The reason: Ezio sires a child or children that are in both Desmond's and 16's ancestral lineage (Since Ezio is a descendant of Altaïr this means that Desmond and 16 also share Altaïr as an ancestor. This could have been Subject Sixteen's earliest memory, or he could have come from Ezio's mother's bloodline and not the fathers).

After the truth has been established, update the article. -- D. Cello 00:30, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

the video of subject sixteen shows adam and eve escaping from the garden of eden a god made slave labour camp where gods are using pieces of eden to controll humans in a scene theres a tall figure holding a apple of eden watching humans blacksmitheThe ghost assasin 13:45, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Just a quick note on a couple of the facts in the article. I don't believe Subject 16 could be from a different family off of Altair and share Ezio as an ancestor with Desmond. The break would have had to happen somewhere after Ezio (possibly Ezio himself, especially seeing his ways with women). I also think that the last section of the article - about Subject 16 being a direct descendant of Adam - is a bit pointless. If Adam and Eve truly are the first humans, shouldn't everyone be a direct descendant?

The glyph video shows many humans other than Adam and Eve - though they themselves may have been "Demigods" (human/Those Who Came before Hybrids) - at the moment, very little is known for certain about assassins creed's Adam and Eve; though it seems that Adam and/or Eve where ancestors of Subject 16, and hence probably Ezio, Desmond, and so forth - but not for certain - i.e the A/E link could only be on the fathers side, etc. --Yargling 19:10, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

Your POVs does make sense, I think you could change it... Ah, sign your posts, please. -- D. Cello 04:10, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Who is the woman Ezio slept with in Memory Sequence 6? I don't see at all... --PhantomT1412 20:24, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Ok now I see, I missed the race...--PhantomT1412 20:06, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ezio is directly the Ancestor of S16. The reason Vidic and Lucy did not find the vault with S16 is because he killed himeself before they found it. So they did not know about the Vault. He also died before they found the map of all the Pieces of Eden, therefore they needed Desmond. --Dragonclaw 3:11, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Blood Lines Edit

  • Is it possible that Subject 16 was a descendant of one of the other Assassins working with Ezio? Vidic was interested in S16's memories but could not find the vault. Is it not then plausible that the location of the Vault was not located by S16 because his ancestor was not Ezio who in fact did find the Vault? Could his ancestor have been another assassin who's memories were relevant to but not including the location of the Vault? If S16 was a descendant of Ezio then he would have found it because Vidic pushed him much harder than Lucy allowed him to push Desmond. So all in all: Who is the Ancestor of Subject 16? --Dark Scion 18:02, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
    • Ezio is S16's Ancestor. The reason that he does not have the memory of the Vault's location, is because Ezio's child (S16' Next Ancestor but not Desmonds) was conceived before Ezio found the vault. Therefore, the Vault's location would not have been transfered to the child through Genetic memory because Ezio hadn't been there yet. Then, after he went to the vault, he conceived Desmond's ancestor. This Child would have got the genetic memory about the vault as Ezio had been to the vault before conception. --Jamisicus67 21:52, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
      • A valid theory, but what we want is something a little more solid. Is there any evidence other than conjecture of this theory?--Dark Scion 03:01, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
        • At the beginning of the game Lucy searches for a memory that Subject 16 and Desmond have in common, it worked meaning that they are both related to Ezio since they both have a memory of him being born in common sure that could also mean S16 just happened to have an ancestor in that room but what are the odds of that ever happening and that idea would also be pointless and stupid. If S16 wasnt related to Desmond then the whole game could have been completely different or just a few parts its and like what Jamisicus67 said his ancestor might have already been concieved which most likey happened when he slept with Cristina (or something) while Desmond came from someone else (possibly Rosa). -- TitanGunz
          • Ooor.. 16 could be a descendant of another Maria or Giovanni son. Maybe Claudia? -- D. Cello 01:14, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
There's a problem with what you say Jamisicus, there's absolutely nothing in-game or in-book to suggest that Ezio had any children before he defeated Borgia, let alone multiple children from whom 16 and Desmond are descended independantly. To Dark Scion, in order to answer your question it is most likely that 16 died before he could be made to access Ezio's memories of the Vault, hence why Vidic knew not of it.
Lucy says Vidic left S16 alone during sessions. Maybe S16 did discover the Vault, while Vidic wasn't there. Or maybe through his hallucinations through the bleeding effect. BleedingEffect 19:23, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
Obviously Ezio did have a child at some point, so that the bloodline could continue, but we can not possibly say it happened before 1499 without some sort of confirmation beforehand. User:Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 20:04, January 10, 2010 (UTC)
  • Thank You, your explanation is very detailed and convincing. A few open ends and unexplained points, but very thorough nonetheless. --Dark Scion 17:30, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
  • I just thought of something, what if Uncle Mario is S16's last ancestor who connects him to Desmond? He knew about the Vault but never entered it. It's possible that the split between Desmond and S16 happened before Ezio was born. This makes sense if we are to believe Desmond and S16's shared lineage goes all they way back to Altair. It's just a theory, one which could be entirely wrong though. Jedted 16:46, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
  • First Clay aka S16 is a descendant of Ezio's, this is made clear from the Glyphs in AC2 and the Rifts in ACB as they were part of Ezio's memories and Ezio was the only character to go to all of their locations. Now it is most likely that Ezio did father a child out of weddlock but it was not with Critina Vespucci, as they were only show making love once before he stoped seeing here regularly, or Caterina Sforza, again as they were only together the one night and after her capter by the Borgia in 1500 and rescue in 1501 she would have given birth by then and wouldn't have let Ezio leave with out 'their child'. As we all know Ezio was a player and was very flirtatious with the ladies so it is not unheard of for Ezio to have tended many 'gardens'. The fact that no more of S16's Rifts appear after the Vadican is opened up in ACB says to me that he could not access those memories because his relation to Ezio ended before that and before Ezio placed his Apple of Eden in the Vault. Tripodssj6 16:20, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

Categories Edit

Do not remove the "Descendant of Altaïr" category anymore. He was a descendant of Ezio, who was a descendant of Altaïr. So therefore, Subject 16 was a descendant of Altaïr. -- Master Sima Yi 08:23, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

"Since Ezio is a descendant of Altaïr this means that Desmond and 16 also share Altaïr as an ancestor, No it doesn't. This could have been Subject Sixteen's earliest memory, or he could have come from Ezio's mother's bloodline and not the fathers)."--PhantomT1412 20:06, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
(In reference to PhantomT1412's quote of D. Cello)No offense intended, but that really doesn't make any sense. Any descendent of Ezio comes from both his mother's *and* his father's bloodline, and thus would have the DNA (and genetic memories, in the AC gameworld) of both. If Subject 16 is indeed a descendant of Ezio, then he is also a descendant of Altair, because Ezio is a descendant of Altair. JimmyTheCannon 00:37, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, indeed. Very well put, Phantom. -- D. Cello 20:10, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't it your quote lol?--PhantomT1412 20:38, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Was it? That's why it was such a perfect explanation, then. ;D -- D. Cello 02:42, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Huh... wait, I'm starting to think that what we said makes no sense. A person inherit the DNA of his two parents, so both Desmond and 16 come from Ezio's mother's bloodline as well as the father's.
But I also have a doubt about 16 being Ezio's descendant as well... At the beginning of the game, the Animus is searching for relevant memory, not DNA. So if the machine was searching the relevance of the lineage, it wouldn't have only been Ezio's memory, but the memories of all his ancestors including Altaïr so why this came in first place. I would rather think, Desmond and 16 are not of the same family, and the Animus probably searched a relevant memory of their respective ancestors who lived in the same period and same place...--PhantomT1412 11:54, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

if sublect 16 was able to leave clues about "the truth" then surely he must be a descendant of ezio otherwise he would not of been able to influence the memory? - Killer 15:05, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

So can we re-add "Descendant of Altaïr"? Since we admit he's Ezio's descendant...--PhantomT1412 18:08, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
While it's likely that Subject 16 is a descendent of Ezio, I don't think that's why he was able to influence the memory. I think he hacked the Animus directly, and those glyphs would have appeared in anyone's memory - *but* they could only be deciphered by someone with Eagle Vision. It's noted at the beginning of AC2 that Lucy saved Subject 16's data as well as Desmond's, and that's most likely why the hacks were present in Desmond's memories in the Animus 2.0. JimmyTheCannon 00:32, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Sure, sure, throw it in. -- D. Cello 18:11, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

I think that Subject 16 could be Ezio himself.. rembr subject 16 says to desmand that she isnt who you think she is... by she I think he means Minarva... Ezio was also in the vault when Minarva should up and maybe thats why he returned to the Villa later. It's just a thought that popped up in my head

Nice theory, but it wouldn't make sense. How would Ezio survive from the 1400's to the 21 Century? When Subject 16 said "She is not who you think she is", he could have been speaking of Lucy *Spoiler Alert* who get's killed by Desmond at the end of AC: Brotherhood.

"Do not remove the "Descendant of Altaïr" category anymore. He was a descendant of Ezio, who was a descendant of Altaïr." - Ezio Is not a descendant of Altair, but Desmond is a descendent of both of them, Desmond's bloodline contributes from many key assassins, all of which have the Eagle Vison ability, inheirited from the cross breeding of humans and the 'ones before'. As to whether Desmond and 16 are related, it is definate that their bloodlines cross somewhere in the renaissance period, made evident by the fact that in AC2, Desmond is sent back to a point in which both his and 16's bloodlines cross. 05:11, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Trivia Edit

What's the Gettysburg battle bit about? I want sources, people, sources! -- D. Cello 14:06, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

In his little speech before Glyph 14, while rambling on a little about past experiences he says "I'm holding a rifle, Gettysburg is in the distance...". You can hear it in this handy YouTube Video: -- Chariflame 13:49, February 22, 2010 (UTC)


Granted, Sixteen is most certainly a descendant of both Ezio and Altaïr, and more than likely a close relative of Desmond, but does either of the games or any of source actually name Sixteen as an assassin. I mean, having the blood of the assassins and being an assassin are two totally different things. Could someone provide a quote and source, otherwise I'll be removing the information. User:Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 01:12, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Page 176 of the official strategy guide says that 16 was an assassin capture by Abstergo Recon1medic 18:21, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

In the inro of revelation SPOILER 16 says "One of us, one of the good guys isnt that nice." He said "us" isnt he referring to himself as an assassin? IlMualim 18:06, December 8, 2011 (UTC)


The name does appear at AC, but there's no indication it referes to 16. If so, we need to identify who is that and properly categorize him in some article on the wiki.
Jasca, can you copy the whole passage where the name appears, or try to identify the character? -- D. Cello 01:44, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps... Edit

...S16 will be Desmonds Uncle or even cheesier his Father NOOOOOoooooooooooooo!!!!!

Lucan07 21:04, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Lucan07 dont im logged in

Well I personally don't think so, Subject 16's voice sounds like a young man's and Lucy refered to Desmond's parents without mentioning 16 as his father. I think they would be just distant cousins. PassiveNeoluna 22:37, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ah but what if She didn't know 16 was his father but you may be right maybe its his dare i say it his brother ahhhhhhhhh Lucan07 23:07, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

s16 and desmond are related but who is the woman in the truth video it is eve but i recognize her!!!!!!!

after you finish the maze and s16 speaks to desmond

Desmond: Subject 16? Subject 16: [laughs] Yes, yes, Subject 17. Desmond: You’re dead. I saw your blood! Subject 16: No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them. Desmond: Who? Subject 16: She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, it’s already gone. Desmond: Explain. Please. Subject 16: Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA Desmond: Tell me! Subject 16: I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy... Desmond: Don’t go! Subject 16: I am with you 'til the end. Find me, in the darkness.

i think it might be desmonds son.????????????

subject 16 Edit

I think that it is Malik there is subject 16 ancester, because in assassins creed one when Altair looks at the map the apple shows, Malik comes and saw it too, but not all of it and when abstergo found out that there was a map who showes the locations over all the other apples they needed to see all of it, so they have to find out who there has Altair as an ancestor and that is why abstergo found Desmond Miles because they wanted too see all of the map Altair saw. Abstergo didnt now there was a map, because only two men saw it Altair and Malik.

In assassins creed 2 lucy says that she new Desmond had an ancestor in Italy and how did she now? because of of subject 16, he also had an ancestor in Italy and Ezio meets him in the game right after he has got the apple back from Rordrigo Borgia and the person is an assassin his name is Niccolo Machiavelli. He looks a bit like Malik, that is why Lucy knew Desmond had an ancestor in Italy

That is a pretty weak assumption. After all how can we be sure Niccolo and Malik are related. Only because they look a little like each other? Cause we have to agree that Subject 16 could only know all these things if he had an ancestor both in Italy and Masyaf which were connected to each other. So it's a bit of too big coincidence that Malik also had a descendent in Italy who knew Ezio very well. And please sign your posts next time. -- Altaïr 19:03, 18 May, 2010 (UTC)
I was under the impression that everybody knows Subject 16 is related to Ezio, and more then likely Altair as well. Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 17:08, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
Well that is what I think, cause after all to stay in synch, Ezio must have visited all the exact same spots where subject 16 placed those glyphs, but only Desmond could see them. Ezio must have found -- Altaïr 19:14, 18 May, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Since the one memory match found in both DNA's was Ezio, it means that Desmond came from Giovanni line and 16 from Maria, or vice-versa. Also, until 40, we don't see Ezio's child, but that doesn't mean he was never a father. He could have had a son with Cristina or Amelia or other, but that kid wasn't Desmond's family, it could have been 16. I'm thinking in adding a Genealogical Tree in the wiki.... tooo many twists and turns... -- D. Cello 21:02, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

i beleive they where escaping a slave camp called the garden of eden which was a containment camp gods were using to force slave labour with humans controlling them with an apple theres a scene a tall figure with an apple watches humans blacksmithing top that pals

The ghost assasin 13:40, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Subject Sixteen's messages were written with his blood, and when viewed in Eagle Vision, they appear red, meaning hostile. Could this mean he was really evil and was a Templar? BleedingEffect 19:20, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

No, I think it was just to make it more obvious that it was written in blood. If it had a blue shine to it, it would not be as obvious that it was indeed blood. -- Altaïr 21:27, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
do you think the blood on lucy's shirt in the start of AC2 might be the blood of 16 cuz he wrote stuff in blood and lucy was trying to stop him....

Is the morse code achievement "IAMALIVE" referring to subject 16? How can he be alive, i thought he drained himself of all his blood to write on the walls and Lucy said he was dead herself! Unless he somehow faked his death... But who else could it refer to? This game really gives us pause for thought! RussellSparrow 18:45, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

Ubisoft has another game coming out titled "I Am Alive." It's possible this achievement is simply a reference to that game. JimmyTheCannon 00:32, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Considering that you get the acheivement by finding all of his messages I would say thats highly likely who knows he could be living as an assassin.Sniperteam82308 00:33, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Gender Edit

In Brotherhood doesn't the nerdy guy who updates the data say that Subject 16 was Pregnant and thats why the memories experienced by her were wacky? Pregnant=Female. I rest my case. Evnyofdeath 16:25, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Granted I haven't played Brotherhood yet, because I'm a PC player, but - if Subject 16 is female, then why was all of the audio in AC2 a *male* voice? That makes no sense. JimmyTheCannon 02:58, November 20, 2010 (UTC)
Evnyofdeath, that was Subject 15. Subject 16 was repeatedly referred to as a "he" by Lucy. Also, as JimmyTheCannon said, it was a MALE voice. JonAuditore 22:34, November 19, 2010 (USA)

Subject 16's quotes Edit

Okay, I just had a brain blast. When Desmond talks to Subject 16 in the Animus, the part where he says "Your son...." and all that, he says, "I am with you until the end." Jesus said that at Matthew 28: 20. I know so because I am a Bible reader. He told his disciples that he'd guide them in finding believers until the end of present human government, but in the AC universe, the end of the world. I'm guessing his name would be one of the titles given to Jesus, more and likely Michael. I doubt it'd be Prince of Peace, or Eternal Father. Any thoughts? Strang3Happ3nings 08:04, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he tgouth till you find out the truth. also "Find me in the Darknes" what does that meen ???? Zlatko-anubis 10:36, June 25, 2011 (UTC)

It might be an allusion to the "Black Room" in AC:Revelations, just a thought, **Possible Spoiler** considering Desmond's full consciousness is in the animus, and since now we know it is possible to have your "mind" fully in the animus (as we now know that Desmond is in there trying to restore his shattered mind) it might be that subject 16 did the same thing or had some varient of the same process happen as a result of the endless hours spent inside of the animus, and thus will meet you in the "black room", at least that is what I would speculate, if he makes an appearence at all it could be there. Harleyzone 01:23, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Just a Few questions ? Edit

So one of Subject 16 anestors took part in the battle of Gettysburg, he says he can see Gettysburg in the distance, so would that mean he was a member of the Confederate army attacking the city ?

but i don't know much about american history

Also its say one of his anestor was conected to Queen isabella , but which one ?

yeah sorry if am asking the questions in the wrong place Adam2me 20:37, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

We have no way of knowing if 16's ancestor at Gettysburg was Confederate or Union, or even if they took part in the battle itself; all we know is that at least one of his ancestors was present whilst the battle took place. As for the ancestor connected with Queen Isabella, if we knew who his ancestor was, it would be in the article. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 20:53, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
No i meant which Queen Isabella as the Link in the article , links to a wikipedia page with alot of Queen Isabella to choose from . Adam2me 23:12, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
Oh, well once again we're not sure. Although I got the feeling that it was Queen Isabella of Spain from somewhere, so there was probably something to suggest it was her. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 13:27, January 4, 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't ezio send his apprentices to poison queen isabella in acbh? This could explain both his connection to her and an ancestor in italy. IlMualim 18:14, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Possibility Edit

It is possible that Subject 16 is Desmond's father. Also, Subject 15 was pregnant, which implies that it could be Desmond's mother. Desmond grew up in a location know as "The Farm" with his supposed parents, which could have just not been his actual parent's at all.

It's also not possible; what's your point? --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 01:52, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
I understand the possibility of 16 being desmonds father but i dont get how subject 15 being pregnant implies that she could be desmonds mother. alot of people can be pregnant. 04:01, June 25, 2011 (UTC)
THat would mean there was decades between desmond and s15 17:00, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
As you will find out in revelations, the leader of the modern day assassin brotherhood is Desmond's father, William Miles. ~Starsmith[10:00pm February 22, 2012]

subject 16 still alive? Edit

i know his body is dead but it still looks like his soul/concious is still alive, in the brotherhood truth quest it shows that Subject 16 has emotion. he downloaded himself into the animus which means he could be alive inside the animus. I am stating this because when we were learning about Artificial intellegence in school and how its theoretically possible (but not practically possible now) to download ur personality and memories into a computer/hardrive and live for as long as that memory is intact. what do you guys think? 04:06, June 25, 2011 (UTC)

looks like you where so right. Bobemor 21:39, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Subject Sixteen new about lucy's Dead / he saw the future Edit

in one of the videos in assassin's Creed 2 subject sixteen sasy She see's me rais the knife in the 20 puzle video also he in couple times refers to lucy seeing hime with a knife but the strange thing is he sasy it like he is the one stabing her my teory is that subject sixteen somhow got to see the future that's why he sasys " evrythuyng you know is a lie " and he saw lucy's stabing also i think he is somhow stuck in the animus just like desmond will be in revalation first i tghouth he is from the future but then he "painted" the wall at abstergo so that's not posible so what do you think ? Zlatko-anubis 10:32, June 25, 2011 (UTC)

I Don't necessarily think that the reference that you are making is accurate, but I do agree that *Spoiler* Subject 16 could be stuck in the animus in a similar way to Desmond's predicament maybe as a result of his countless hours inside of the animus, he also could have "programmed" himself into it, he obviously had enough time to do so considering the fact that he programmed a considerable number of files for a later subject to find, also, if you think about the speed at which 16 succumbed to the bleeding effect it is very possible that it evolved in him to the "6th sense" that was mentioned in brotherhood, if so (the 6th sense has been vaguely described by juno as not only eagle vision but an omnipotense, seeing all of time at once) then 16 would be able to know about Desmond and prepare for him, similarly as to how those who came before did (with minerva's specific message, and Juno's message), an interview with an official from ubisoft already mentioned that Juno purposefully made desmond stab lucy to put him into a state of shock that would lead him to the events in revelations. Anything is really possible at this point, we won't know until the game is in the console. Harleyzone 02:06, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Date of death?Edit

Source for his date of death? --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 01:25, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

It's from the preview in the Encyclopedia Making Of video, Jasca. Around 01:42 =GuardDog 01:34, September 23, 2011 (UTC)
Someone needs to update the article then... --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 13:22, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

New 16 pic? Edit

I see there is a new pic for this page, has it been confirmed that this is 16? I watched the viedo he appears in, and yes, it is incredibly likely that it is 16 (who else would be in the Animus with Desmond), but is it definitely him? Should the image be removed until it is confirmed? User:Eggy2504 19:05, 23 September, 2011

The image has been added, and removed (by me) twice. There is no confirmation that the individual pictured is Subject 16 and if you see that image in the infobox, you should revert it immediately (then alert me, so I can give the offending user a warning). --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 18:04, September 23, 2011 (UTC)
ok thanks for clearing that up :) User:Eggy2504 19:28, 23 September, 2011
"Offending user?" You make it sound like they're a criminal. I'm 100% on it being 16, given the image comparison. I'm not big on editing pages, so I won't bring it back. I was just a little surprised when I see the 'related topics' or whatever at the bottom of the page and see the image is still 16's 'body' from Brotherhood. 04:44, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
The staff on this wiki have shown that they can bring together vast and often disjointed information to create this hub of concise and accurate information on the Assassin's Creed universe. If speculation and fanon is allowed then this wiki would spiral out of control and then fall apart. I am not saying that you or anyone else who attaches this new picture or info is trying to do that but have some patience until it is definitively confirmed. The reason the AC wiki is the largest and most comprehensive hub (or nexus ;) ) on the web is because the staff uphold such high standards. Please just have some patience until we know more. -- KaloneousHelpDesk 04:54, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
To add to Kal's response, just because you're 100% it's Subject 16 means absolutely sod all to me; if the wiki worked on the basis of people's percentiles, we wouldn't be the best source for AC lore in the Universe (not even Ubisoft have a database that compares to us). If there is even the slightest chance that the individual is anyone other than Subject 16, the image has no place on the article. As for the "offending user" comment: see Assassin's Creed Wiki:Sourcing; more specifically the list of reliable sources. Last I checked, "randomly leaked video from unverifiable, unaffiliated website" was not on that list. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 10:36, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
Would this interview link help in that decision? Stormbeast 20:19, October 4, 2011 (UTC)
They do not confirm the character to be Subject 16 in that link. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 21:54, October 4, 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it's sixteen. It doesn't even sound like him. My bet is on him being Daniel Cross. The resemblence is shocking.TheDudeMan123456 23:50, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
How about this one? Stormbeast 15:06, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
What about this? 21:08, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Real name Edit

How the hell did you get his real name?

Wow, I wish I know why the hell he's got Polish last name~! ~ BB94

Stop asking stupid questions and look at the damn source already. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 13:54, November 20, 2011 (UTC)
Geez, Jasca. IMHO, that wasn't necessary. And, I, like BB94 want to know why 16 has a Polish last name... that sounds Russian (to me it does). And, before you say look at the source, I've checked the sources and they did nothing to show me where you got his name from. Subject 16 18 21:45, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Darim (Altaïr's son) Edit

Clay looks a lot like Darim, one of the sons of Altaïr, first seen in the third Masyaf Key memory in AC: Revelations. In the 'DARIM and SEF' database entry, it is noted that it is unknown whether Darim had any offspring, but considering the resemblance between him and Clay, he may actually be Clay's ancestor.

That, or the 3D modelers couldn't be bothered to create a skin for Darim ;-)

~ MHLut 22:16, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I thought that it was later retconned that Altaïr and Ezio were from two different sides of Desmond's family. And in 2, we learned that 16 was related to Desmond through Ezio. 13:50, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

His relation to Desmond Edit

Chimoshi 22:02, November 26, 2011 (UTC)I have gather up information on Clay's Family relations.

-He and Desmond share a common ancestor; Ezio

-William Miles (Desmond's Father) has tried and failed to use Ezio's Apple because he isn't from Ezio's bloodline. This means Desmond's mother comes from Ezio's bloodline while William is from Altair's

Clay has to be related to Desmond on his mother's side, and that would make him Desmond's Cousin

  1. Everybody on the planet is related to Charlemane the Frank at some point in the family lineage, does that mean we're all related?
  2. As far as I know, nothing had been said to suggest William has even so much as touched the Apple, let alone attempted to use it.
  3. As your second point had been disproven, your third has as well. Anymore "evidence"? --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 04:25, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, on the second point, I remember hearing in revalations that William said he tried to use the apple, but didn't have to right genes. It happened sometime inbetween sequences. Jedizora 00:23, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

William can't have Altair's bloodline, because he would be able to use Apple. ~ BB94

Actually he could, it might just be his genes are too weak, same could go for his wife (Desmond's mum) but as Sesmond has both genes combined he is strong enough to use itGboy4 19:44, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

The only reason Altaïr, Ezio and Desmond are able to use the Pieces of Eden is because they have a higher concentration of First Civilization genes in their DNA. Not everyone from their bloodlines can wield the Pieces of Eden, just them three... And the closest relation between Desmond and Clay is Ezio, as stated in AC2, and confirmed in ACR. -- Master Sima Yi 20:04, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

'Making sense'?Edit

What does it mean when Clay thanked Desmond for 'making sense'? Making sense of what? I'm a bit confused... 05:08, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe 16 means that Desmond said something that finally made sense to him (Clay)? 'Cause remember the dialog:

  • 16: Do you regret anything Desmond?
  • Desmond: Like what?
  • 16: Running away. Leaving your parents behind. Finding a shit job, and pretending to be productive. What's it like your whole life, avoiding hard decisions?
  • Desmond: Come on.
  • 16: Sure, you're an Assassin, but it wasn't your choice.
  • Desmond: Do you have a point?
  • 16: I want to know, if you regret anything.
  • Desmond: Sure. I wish I'd been more patient with my parents. I wish I'd listened. And Lucy... maybe things could have been different if I'd- I'm not sure.
  • 16: Thank you.
  • Desmond: For what?
  • 16: For making sense.

16 was getting on his case for running away, leaving his family (from the way he said it, 16 seemed a bit pissy... maybe they knew eachother, but D can't remember), being a bartender and pretending that he was happy ('cause Desmond did start regretting his escape). Perhaps, leaving his family behind made no sense to 16 ('cause obviously 16's parents loved him or 16 ran away as well and he was mad that Desmond did the same). By Desmond saying that he regrets running away, that p'robably', made perfect sense to 16.

*Remember... This is speculation, here. Subject 16 18 22:32, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Possible death date Edit

I think I know, when Clay died.

IN ACR trailer, Ubisoft encrypted several messages. One, is probably, a memory of Clay

If you decode it, it shows dates and some short messages. The one from Clay is

source\S16.anima.08082012.SSBBbSBOb3QgQWxpdmU = I Am Not Alive

and the date shown is 08.08.2012

That simply means he was dead by that point. He could have died on any day before that (in 2012 that is). --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 19:36, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

On the island Edit

Why does Desmond not ask 16 about any of the events from the previous games; is there an explanation for this? N7 [T|C] 19:07, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Because Desmond's an idiot. Eggy2504 11:58, January 8, 2012 (UTC)


Ok, there seems to be some confusion here. The infobox lists a new voice actor for Revelations, while Cam Clarke page still has him as the voice actor. Which is the correct one? -S- 18:24, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Delete non-cannon photo Edit

Non-canon PhotoEdit

I think the photo of Michael should be removed. It's not cannon, we know now that S16 is dead, looks nothing like that and is called Clay. RussellSparrow 00:45, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Even if it is non-canon, it is still AC media. Eggy2504 21:48, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Consciousbess deleted? Edit

He was schechuled for deletion at the end of ACR, right? Isn't that time when his mind died eventually? Xeoxer 15:22, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

you know what i think might happen? you in the ending of revalation when animus island is reloaded i think he will be reloaded back into the blackroomBolandjj98 18:56, January 23, 2012 (UTC)Bolandjj98

Discrepancy/delusion Edit

Not suggesting anything for the article but I'm replaying ACII at the moment and am on the Origin of Species Glyph puzzle, 16 speaks of having experienced many deaths as his ancestors, something along the lines of 'the guillotine hits my neck, the bullet hits my chest...' etc. Surely he wouldn't experience his ancestors' deaths as they wouldn't be recorded in his genetics? Mercenari 21:42, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's more of an allusion to "I desynched so many times, dear god did I suck at this." Kainzorus Prime Walkie-talkie 21:53, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's to do with the Bleeding Effect, made much more damaging by the extensive and prolonged sessions in the Animus when he was at Abstergo. He could be seeing the deaths of his ancestors because they come to him in visions such as Desmond were having by his minor affliction with it. Slate Vesper 22:03, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

But my point is that, like Desmond witnessed, he can't see any memories of an ancestor beyond the point they created the next ancestor, at that point their genetic contributions are over. So while S16 was clearly suffering from the Bleeding Effect, he couldn't experience their deaths, as to have been his ancestor they must have concieved a child before dying. Mercenari 22:36, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

What if the guy died, was revived with The Ankh and then had children before dying again. Didn't one of the comics say that this happened with someone. Maybe Clay's ancestor could have had the ankh. IlMualim 05:39, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

A lot of the French comics contradict the Assassin's Creed universe, so while they say the Aquilus storyline is canon, it is still impossible for his genetic memories to contain their deaths. Also what you're saying would mean that many of his ancestors had the Ankh as he says he remembers dying many times. Mercenari 12:11, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

possibility of subject 16 related to 15 Edit

i think clay maybe the son of subject 15 because that's what thought of him being born at abstergo industries.Bolandjj98 19:10, January 23, 2012 (UTC)Bolandjj01

He wasn't born at Abstergo... And he was born in 1982, while Daniel Cross, Subject 4 was at Abstergo in 1485... There is no problem with theories, but keep it reasonable and sensible. -- Master Sima Yi 19:14, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
Uh...possible typo there Sima? ;) The Leaping Eagle 16:08, April 29, 2012 (UTC)
No, that was just me failing. -- Master Sima Yi 16:43, April 29, 2012 (UTC)
One thing that is also mentioned in the Lost Archive DLC is that Lucy had to deal with both Subject 15 and Clay (Subject 16), as she says that she has to go run some experiments on her while she leaves Clay to root around in the Animus database. Slate Vesper 18:06, April 29, 2012 (UTC)
That is irrelevant though in regards to Clay being related to Subject 15. -- Master Sima Yi 18:09, April 29, 2012 (UTC)
Well it does steer away from that. Since Clay's mother left him while he was growing up, he couldn't realistically be the son of Subject 15. There is the slim possibility that it could be some female relative like an aunt, but it wouldn't be that likely, seeing as Abstergo would be better off going for different bloodlines for more data on the Assassins. Slate Vesper 18:16, April 29, 2012 (UTC)
He is obviously not related to Subject 15 at all, it stands on no grounds. I don't see the point in speculating on this further either. -- Master Sima Yi 18:19, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Nationality Edit

Judging by his last name he had Polish ancestors (propably his father was Pole). It should be written, shouldn't it?--Guurahk 14:20, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

No. It's speculation. --Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 14:56, March 29, 2012 (UTC)
And it's already written on the Trivia section. Bogdan stretePS3 The Cold One 17:09, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Abstergo discovered Ezio Auditore thanks to him? Edit

During the Lost Archive, in memory 4 (The Mole), yhere is this short dialogue:

  • Italian Man 1: There is an old tale, passed down through the ages, that the Apple of Eden was not flesh at all, but solid like marble or bronze. They say incredible power will be granted to the man who holds it. Truthfully, I believe such lies to be little more than blasphemy.
  • Warren: If he sees the Apple, let me know immediately.
  • Italian Man 1: Have you heard of the Assassino (Assassin)?
  • Italian Man 2: Sì. (Yes.) Ezio Auditore.
  • Warren: Find out about this Ezio Auditore. I want his records on my desk by the end of the week.

Does this dialogue confirme that Clay was the Subject which helped Abstergo discover Ezio Auditore?

If so, is it worth mentioning in the article? 17:07, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

It's best if you ask Stormbeast, as he's working on Clay's article. Arcemz 21:44, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

No titleEdit

why can't the game ever have a clay kaczmerek DLC i want to know how he where he is now...well ya know how he got there but i want a game where you can do just that...and i want to know why he wrote all that stuff on the wall in his room and why he left so many answers (if you would call it that) within the animus

How about you replay AC2 Brotherhood Revelations? All that is needed to understand and answer your above questions is paying attention. --Kainzorus Prime Walkie-talkie 01:36, November 4, 2013 (UTC)

Ball-point pen Death Edit

There has been a big argument over at Initiates regarding this article, specifically regarding Clay's death. Can someone pin point the exact moment it says that Clay died "at the hands of" a ball-point pen? I couldn't find the answer myself so I would like some clarification in that regard. --Sekuiyatalk 18:34, January 16, 2014 (UTC)

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